tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5693617853908508572.post7114392599697094122..comments2023-10-22T06:42:51.797-04:00Comments on Students of Jesus: Relationship, not PropositionRay Hollenbachhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08035600094853593399noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5693617853908508572.post-78831667997027046032011-07-05T21:16:03.851-04:002011-07-05T21:16:03.851-04:00When I lost my faith at a Vineyard church, it was ...When I lost my faith at a Vineyard church, it was because of behaviour such as you describe in metaphor -- the checklist in hand. It's easy to talk about God accepting us with our doubts this way; but it seems intractable to put into practice. I only mention the "Vineyard" aspect of the story because this is putatively a fellowship wherein the Holy Spirit was having all this influence. How can it be for those who aren't even seeking this?<br><br>I am reminded of a story from the Chronicles of Narnia; "The Silver Chair". Jill Pole, on meeting Aslan, and hearing from Him that He had called her to Narnia, wanted to dispute this; she thought she had been doing the calling. Aslan sez: "You would not be calling to me unless I had been calling to you." So this "faith" we speak of involves more than our volitional will. I wonder at -- and I am one of those who dismisses what my elders pressed on me in my youth, and most of what I hear in church -- what we reject we do because there is an element of forced "pretend" about it. "Pretend" I got my answer to my tithing question. "Pretend" that it does not matter if the earth is 10,000 years old or not. Etc. In the grander scheme those things do not matter as much as the weight we put on them. But the "pretend" matters greatly because we understand ourselves to have been sickened or injured at some time in the past from some like "pretend." And this matters to your essay about faith because faith is not about "pretend."Charlesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5693617853908508572.post-60292124977198809972011-07-05T21:16:03.314-04:002011-07-05T21:16:03.314-04:00In the Corinthians teaching about the Gifts of the...In the Corinthians teaching about the Gifts of the Spirit; there is one that is not examined much: The gift of faith. Lots of people are familiar with the Word of Knowledge; Word of Wisdom, tongues, interpretation. .....Few speak of the Gift of Faith. It has happened twice in my life; I had revelatory knowledge of something that was God's intention; I insisted in my praying that it would. And it came to pass; in both instances essentially by other people, not part of the drama, being compelled by the leading of the Spirit to do something, in one case to give me a check; in another case to purchase something from me. In neither case were they even in any position to know about the intercession or the great need; but my confidence that God would do what I understood Him to be promising me that He would do was supra-natural; that is, it was not worked up by me; neither was it rational in light of the circumstances. One other believer known to me described a like experience as one of having a can of faith poured into him.<br><br>The whole "word of faith" movement -- name it and claim it -- seems to me to be a corruption of what at the core is part of the armamentorium given to us by the Holy Spirit. They have taken real events and made them into what they suppose is a spiritual billy club. A metaphor for what it *really* is like is more like those mechanized suits you climb into that then allow you to lift huge weights, punch through a wall, etc. God can power the suit up; we can't.<br><br>... One does not live in the suit. One does not think that *they* are the suit. And it's only for certain enabling purposes. And then you get out of the suit.<br><br>So, in the case of Sarah, we see, I think, an OT type and shadow of this phenomena.Charlesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5693617853908508572.post-63580564336048711582010-10-21T06:20:22.739-04:002010-10-21T06:20:22.739-04:00In the Corinthians teaching about the Gifts of the...In the Corinthians teaching about the Gifts of the Spirit; there is one that is not examined much: The gift of faith. Lots of people are familiar with the Word of Knowledge; Word of Wisdom, tongues, interpretation. .....Few speak of the Gift of Faith. It has happened twice in my life; I had revelatory knowledge of something that was God's intention; I insisted in my praying that it would. And it came to pass; in both instances essentially by other people, not part of the drama, being compelled by the leading of the Spirit to do something, in one case to give me a check; in another case to purchase something from me. In neither case were they even in any position to know about the intercession or the great need; but my confidence that God would do what I understood Him to be promising me that He would do was supra-natural; that is, it was not worked up by me; neither was it rational in light of the circumstances. One other believer known to me described a like experience as one of having a can of faith poured into him.<br /><br />The whole "word of faith" movement -- name it and claim it -- seems to me to be a corruption of what at the core is part of the armamentorium given to us by the Holy Spirit. They have taken real events and made them into what they suppose is a spiritual billy club. A metaphor for what it *really* is like is more like those mechanized suits you climb into that then allow you to lift huge weights, punch through a wall, etc. God can power the suit up; we can't.<br /><br />... One does not live in the suit. One does not think that *they* are the suit. And it's only for certain enabling purposes. And then you get out of the suit.<br /><br />So, in the case of Sarah, we see, I think, an OT type and shadow of this phenomena.Charlesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5693617853908508572.post-49490599453820009092010-10-19T17:22:52.574-04:002010-10-19T17:22:52.574-04:00Thanks, Sarah, that's very encouraging. God bl...Thanks, Sarah, that's very encouraging. God bless you and yours.Ray Hollenbachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08035600094853593399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5693617853908508572.post-7404183881882233592010-10-19T16:17:53.972-04:002010-10-19T16:17:53.972-04:00Ray, I love every word of this. It resonates so de...Ray, I love every word of this. It resonates so deeply with me. Thank you!!!Sarah Besseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17217683418314819836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5693617853908508572.post-43449205916097879692010-10-16T13:09:24.878-04:002010-10-16T13:09:24.878-04:00Hi Charles:
I'm sorry to hear of your past ex...Hi Charles:<br /><br />I'm sorry to hear of your past experiences, but your story from the Silver Chair is spot on. <br /><br />We derive the word "pretense" from the word "pretend." And pretending is never a substitute for faith. I am constantly challenged by this description about Abraham, the Father of Faith: "Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah's womb was also dead." (Romans 4:19) In this verse we see the interplay between "facing the facts" and yet still having faith. Whether this kind of faith is volitional or a gift--I'm afraid we'll have to wait a while and then ask Abraham. Peace!Ray Hollenbachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08035600094853593399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5693617853908508572.post-66677854591121146842010-10-16T09:57:21.136-04:002010-10-16T09:57:21.136-04:00When I lost my faith at a Vineyard church, it was ...When I lost my faith at a Vineyard church, it was because of behaviour such as you describe in metaphor -- the checklist in hand. It's easy to talk about God accepting us with our doubts this way; but it seems intractable to put into practice. I only mention the "Vineyard" aspect of the story because this is putatively a fellowship wherein the Holy Spirit was having all this influence. How can it be for those who aren't even seeking this?<br /><br />I am reminded of a story from the Chronicles of Narnia; "The Silver Chair". Jill Pole, on meeting Aslan, and hearing from Him that He had called her to Narnia, wanted to dispute this; she thought she had been doing the calling. Aslan sez: "You would not be calling to me unless I had been calling to you." So this "faith" we speak of involves more than our volitional will. I wonder at -- and I am one of those who dismisses what my elders pressed on me in my youth, and most of what I hear in church -- what we reject we do because there is an element of forced "pretend" about it. "Pretend" I got my answer to my tithing question. "Pretend" that it does not matter if the earth is 10,000 years old or not. Etc. In the grander scheme those things do not matter as much as the weight we put on them. But the "pretend" matters greatly because we understand ourselves to have been sickened or injured at some time in the past from some like "pretend." And this matters to your essay about faith because faith is not about "pretend."Charlesnoreply@blogger.com