tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5693617853908508572.post855896125280578994..comments2023-10-22T06:42:51.797-04:00Comments on Students of Jesus: Monday's Meditation: With a god like that, who needs a devil?Ray Hollenbachhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08035600094853593399noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5693617853908508572.post-2759425799478543682011-08-18T11:48:34.557-04:002011-08-18T11:48:34.557-04:00HI Brit: Yep. I hear you. And I understand that my...HI Brit: Yep. I hear you. And I understand that my post is difficult to swallow from a reform point of view. I genuinely appreciate the dialogue, and respect your presuppositions, even when we differ!<br /><br />I'm totally OK with God "allows" suffering. I draw the line at Him being the author of them. Like you, I have a concern for his glory (even as you posit his goodness). Like you, I see the dangers of a man-centered ethic or theology. Yet there are points where we diverge:<br /><br />Our Lord's death on the cross was the result of loving cooperation between the eternal Father, Son, and Spirit: it was in their hearts (as one) from before the beginning began. If anything can be called unique in all history, it's the atonement.<br /><br />John 9 indeed highlights God's glory through the goodness shown in the healing. Nowhere do I read in the text (or subtext) that the Father is the agent of the birth-defect: only that He worked everything toward his glory. (Granted, *my* presuppositions come into play there.)<br /><br />Finally, I'm personally acquainted with parents who have experienced infant deaths. Not once have they been consoled by the idea that it was God's plan all along. One couple had a crisis in faith over this very issue. All of them, however experienced God's care, goodness, and greatness as he helped them restore their lives to a new kind of normal.<br /><br />Don't worry! I won't always push these theological buttons! Check out today's (8/18) post for something completely different!<br /><br />Peace and blessings!rayhollenbachnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5693617853908508572.post-74917830999657392352011-08-18T02:36:08.494-04:002011-08-18T02:36:08.494-04:00I'm not sure I want to say the book of Job is ...I'm not sure I want to say the book of Job is somehow less relevant than Jesus's words. Indirectly they are His words and the word is the final authority and Jesus just fulfills it, but that's not the point. If we can only use Jesus's words, then let's look at John 9. The man was born blind for a reason. He was born blind so the work and glory of God could be displayed. Sin didn't cause this the scriptures say. So do SOME things happen for a reason? <br /><br />I think if we're not careful we make God's intent and centeredness to be man orientated. His love and concern and care is ultimately about us. This is humanistic deism which is ultimately just humanism. No doubt, He absolutely loves us. He's absolutely gracious. He's absolutely merciful and forgiving and I could go on and on. But His ultimate and chief aim is absolutely the glory and fame of His name. So He saves us and heals us not because of us but for the sake and glory of His name. I think this makes suffering a little easier to swallow and understand.<br /><br />When I was a child I loved my parents. I was fortunate to have had both of them in my life. I loved them when times were good and I loved them when times were bad, but I was desperate for them when I was hurt or sad. I wanted to crawl in their lap and for them to hold me. Now if you and I can agree that He (Jesus) is what is ultimately good, and if we can agree that He is what will ultimately bring us joy then we can not be upset when God allows suffering in our lives. Now a normal parent wouldn't cause their child to suffer just for their child to come close, but we're not dealing with normal children in this case. We're dealing with a Romans 1 type people who would rather worship the creation instead of the creator. I do not desire suffering, but if suffering will push me to arms of my creator then I will praise Him for what James calls the perfecting of my faith. <br /><br />I know my writing comes from a reformed context, and I understand and respect other views, but I just don't see how you can rationally separate God from these things. God the Father killed Jesus.(Isaiah 53) That's 1st degree murder in the states. It was premeditated. It was a sin for the Romans to kill Jesus. It was a sin for Judas to betray Jesus. It was suffering for Jesus to hang on the cross, but it was all a part of the plan. As revelations says "the lamb slain before the foundations of the world". The death of Jesus was a part of God's unique plan from the beginning. <br /><br />I don't believe this somehow magically makes suffering easy, but I do believe it offers a biblical perspective on the purpose and intent of our God. His intent for His children is ultimately good, because His intent for us is Him.Brit Channing Fosheehttp://www.facebook.com/brit.fosheenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5693617853908508572.post-80768062203951813442011-08-16T11:34:01.377-04:002011-08-16T11:34:01.377-04:00This is fantastic, Ray!This is fantastic, Ray!Caleb Wildehttp://twitter.com/CalebWildenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5693617853908508572.post-22879510503570521082011-08-15T19:49:07.929-04:002011-08-15T19:49:07.929-04:00I think your key insight comes from the Lord's...I think your key insight comes from the Lord's Prayer, where we are instructed to ask for his will to be done "on earth as it is in Heaven." You are spot-on when you indicate this means, "not everything that happens down here is God's will." That's why I observed that we've heard so much about God's power, but the net effect is to make him distant and uncaring--unless we (as you say) try to make sense of things. This leads to some pretty tortured rationale about God's mysterious ways being beyond our understanding.<br /><br />Instead, Jesus invites us to think (and act) in concrete terms: God is a loving and capable Father, standing with us through a sin-sick world. We can relate to that, I think, with great comfort.<br /><br />Please comment any time!rayhollenbachnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5693617853908508572.post-13579870966506849502011-08-15T19:48:36.055-04:002011-08-15T19:48:36.055-04:00I think your key insight comes from the Lord's...I think your key insight comes from the Lord's Prayer, where we are instructed to ask for his will to be done "on earth as it is in Heaven." You are spot-on when you indicate this means, "not everything that happens down here is God's will." That's why I observed that we've heard so much about God's power, but the net effect is to make him distant and uncaring--unless we (as you say) try to make sense of things. This leads to some pretty tortured rationale about God's mysterious ways being beyond our understanding.<br /><br />Instead, Jesus invites us to think (and act) in concrete terms: God is a loving and capable Father, standing with us through a sin-sick world. We can relate to that, I think, with great comfort.<br /><br />Please comment any time!rayhollenbachnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5693617853908508572.post-25602438055996194402011-08-15T19:47:58.668-04:002011-08-15T19:47:58.668-04:00I think your key insight comes from the Lord's...I think your key insight comes from the Lord's Prayer, where we are instructed to ask for his will to be done "on earth as it is in Heaven." You are spot-on when you indicate this means, "not everything that happens down here is God's will." That's why I observed that we've heard so much about God's power, but the net effect is to make him distant and uncaring--unless we (as you say) try to make sense of things. This leads to some pretty tortured rationale about God's mysterious ways being beyond our understanding.<br /><br />Instead, Jesus invites us to think (and act) in concrete terms: God is a loving and capable Father, standing with us through a sin-sick world. We can relate to that, I think, with great comfort.<br /><br />Please comment any time!rayhollenbachnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5693617853908508572.post-90531446521082487272011-08-15T19:40:55.318-04:002011-08-15T19:40:55.318-04:00great post today. i've always thought it was c...great post today. i've always thought it was completely ridiculous how quickly people ascribe really awful things to God. like, what, was God in on the Rape of Nan King, the Killing Fields of Cambodia, the Mai Lei Massacre, The Jonestown Suicides, Rwandan genocide, Trench Warfare, the Holocaust, the Trail of Tears, the Irish Potato Famine, The London Fire of 1666, and Bernie Madoff? Isn't the Lord's prayer in general and asking for God's will to be done on earth (like it already is in heaven), by definition, shorthand for admitting that not everything that happens down here is God's will?<br /><br />buuut, i do think the practice probably often comes from seekers trying to make sense and finding meaning in their suffering. in other words, it's theologically troublesome and ultimately, i think, defeating, but i can see how it could come from a place of hurt. if someone (to use your example) can rationalize their paralysis as God's will, i think it can often help them overcome the chaotic futility that they must feel. If God somehow was the author, then he must have a plan for them beyond the paralysis. and maybe it helps keep them from asking questions like 'why didn't God intervene?"<br /><br />Obviously, the best pastoral answer is: of course God didn't cause your paralysis, but he most definitely has a plan to 'bless you and not to harm you.'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5693617853908508572.post-18809690804240444192011-08-15T15:33:19.804-04:002011-08-15T15:33:19.804-04:00Welcome! I think you raise important points, with ...Welcome! I think you raise important points, with a balance tilting toward God's goodness.<br /><br />Without a doubt we live in a fallen world, which finds itself at the core in rebellion against the Creator. Sin was set loose in the world through the disobedience of Adam. Even nature finds itself awaiting the revelation of the sons of God. For me, this means sickness may come simply because our world is broken.<br /><br />We agree, too, that God's sovereignty and glory is highlighted by his ability and eagerness to bring greater good out of pain, suffering, and even outright sinfulness. It causes me to praise Him and love him more. <br /><br />Sadly, in my experience many (most?) North American Christians embrace nearly every event in life as God's ultimate will, and attribute the origins to Him. This strikes me as a simplistic view of His Creation and intent for his handiwork. Perhaps you've heard people say, "Everything happens for a reason," the idea being God is the cause. This is very different from saying, "God brings reason out of everything that happens."<br /><br />Finally, I wonder where the greater revelation lies: the Book of Job or the words of Jesus? For many believers, Job seems to be the default position on suffering, even though Jesus is God's final word, and "the exact representation of God nature." (Hebrews 1). Jesus never blessed a storm, and ruined every funeral he attended.<br /><br />You're always welcome here, britc17--thanks for commenting!rayhollenbachnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5693617853908508572.post-35333277312260212782011-08-15T14:28:09.751-04:002011-08-15T14:28:09.751-04:00It's bfosh from twitter. I want my students to...It's bfosh from twitter. I want my students to absolutely know that God is working in and through all things for His glory and their ultimate joy. Ultimate is obviously the key word there. If cancer brings me closer to Christ and increases my opportunity for greater joy, then we DO have a loving father who does allow tragedy and pain to draw us closer to himself. I think in some instances you can say he authored it, and in others you have to say that He allowed it. (Job). regardless of what you chalk it up to, in some way yoh must say that He was involved. He does all this and simultaneously keeps His righteousness and "fatherness" in tact.Britc17noreply@blogger.com