“Well, it was a pretty short skirt,” said the guy.
“That’s just the way Julie dresses,” answered the girl. “She needs to have people notice her.”
“She got noticed all right. One of the deacons went and got a video camera and took video of her in that outfit so that when they confront her about it they’ll have visual evidence.”
“That’s just wrong,” said the girl.
“Which?” asked the guy: “Her skirt or the video?”
Sometimes I make things up to prove a point. This conversation, however, was real. I wish it wasn’t.
Setting aside for a moment the creepiness-factor of middle aged deacons running for a video camera to tape a girl wearing a short skirt, the case of the really short skirt demonstrates the reasons so many believers are through with the church. The incident makes it difficult to suggest that participating in church life is a vital aspect of following Jesus. It’s hard to be in favor of the church when the church is manifestly flawed.
But what about Julie? What if she really does “need to have people notice her?” Who will help her, and how can it be done? The camera wielding deacons are no answer, they are part of the problem. Yet church discipline should exist to help believers find freedom in Christ.
“Church Discipline.” The phrase is either an oxymoron or a neon sign warning all who see it to run for their lives because this church is nuts.
Were the churches of the New Testament nuts? Here’s a sample of the insanity:
So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord . . . I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people--not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.” (1 Corinthians 5: 1-5, 9-13)
What are we to do with Paul? Is he also a camera-crazed deacon? Or what should we do with Jesus, who laid down guidelines for handling conflict within the church ending with, “if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.”
Church history is filled with bad examples. The only redeeming thing that came out of the Spanish Inquisition is a Monty Python punch-line. So how does an obscure blog from the peaceful hills of Central Kentucky solve the problem? It doesn’t, other than to suggest three key factors every follower of Jesus should consider today:
- Experiencing the presence of Jesus is the first and best kind of church discipline. Jesus is the head of the church. He is alive, active, and he has opinions about the actions we take and choices we make each day. The best way for a disciple of Jesus to avoid camera-wielding deacons is to live in the presence of Jesus as a way of life. The same gun-toting Apostle Paul who spoke such harsh words to the Corinthians concluded his advice to the Philippians like this: "All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you." (Phil 3: 10-11) Toward an immature church Paul raised a strong hand. To a healthy church he commended them to the still small voice of the Father.
- Church discipline in the Western world is nearly impossible today. In the U.S. alone there are more than 6,000 denominations today. That’s denominations, not churches. Is it any surprise in a consumer-driven society that a follower of Jesus would have 6,000 choices of how to express his or her faith? If your skirt is too short for one church, head for another. If you are a greedy idolatrous businessman you can fit in nicely somewhere. You don’t even need to change denominations, just “move your letter” to the other side of town. Even when church discipline is exercised with perfect love and care (a rarity, I grant you), the object of such love can easily pack up his problems and head somewhere else. The only difficulty is that the problems go with him: "wherever you go, there you are." Set your calendar, the need to be noticed--or whatever your problem--will surface again.
- Loving someone enough to help them find freedom from their fears and appetites is the heart of church discipline. If you knew someone was suicidal, would you take action? How about alcoholic or anorexic? We instinctively agree that love takes action. Imperfect action is better than no action when life is on the line. But the truth is: life is on the line every day. What if Julie's need to be noticed grows into the choice to marry an abusive husband? By the time everyone agrees on taking action much of the harm is already done. Godly leadership (not the deacons in my example!) is empowered to see and take action. Godly leaders are the shepherds of our souls: “Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.”
Is that crazy talk, or scripture: you tell me.
What about you? Do you have examples of church discipline gone bad--or gone right? Tell your story in the comments below.
Shepherd: You keep speaking as if church leaders are tapped into some source of Wisdom, or something. Some of them are; some of them aren't. Just like "regular" believers. When I was losing my faith over mandatory tithing, my ex was having an affair during our time of separation (really, tithing did me in; it was a "last straw" among other straws) She has been welcomed back as a visitor with her new husband; the result of an adulterous affair. For me, It was suggested to me that I go elsewhere, and though I did not get answers to my questions, I got the message. My point is here is not just another rocky-church-horror story; not at all. We all have those. My point is that authority for undershepherds comes from some other thing than a manly voice; it comes from a wholly developed matrix of authority, love, correct doctrine, and community. And this does not happen by making speeches; and the very institutionalization of authority that you favor in your writings seems to, IMHO, work against the true formation of such a fellowship-context. Because the community of believers are part of it -- an essential and unreplaceable part of it. It cannot come soley from the pulpit. If you have that, I think the witness of people's lives and the conviction of the Holy Spirit will take care of the short skirts. In answer to your question: At this time, it is "crazy talk." Unless you know a place where the leaders actually intercede over their charges and try to help them grow and flourish. Even the difficult ones with difficult questions.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your observations, and I'm sorry to hear of your personal experiences. Sorry, but not surprised. And yes, much of what I posted today *is* crazy talk because the church--neither the leaders nor the congregation--even thinks in terms of life giving and life-guiding leadership.
ReplyDeleteYou wrote, "Unless you know a place where the leaders actually intercede over their charges and try to help them grow and flourish." I'm also pleased to be able to say that I know first-hand of several such places, and Jesus knows of them all.
Ray, what a great post. We actually confronted this issue in our church when we finally got fed up with the attire allowed on the platform. No exaggeration, it was like watching Britney Spears. The joy of it all? The two worst offenders were the senior pastors' daughters. (OUCH.) We met with the pastor, were told he was not "the clothing police" and that was kinda the end (there was a policy later put into place issuing some more conservative guidelines.) Yes, I am concerned about the motives behind the one dressing like that, and yes I hope that these young women would eventually find more value in themselves than how great they look in a skirt. I am equally concerned with my teen sons that are sitting in the pews looking at these girls, and what kind of message that sends to them, and what message it sends to my daughters who are also sitting there wondering if that is the way THEY should be dressing. It is a matter of the heart, but it is also a matter of thinking of others more than yourself. If ones personal attire is grounds to cause another to stumble, than I would hope that the offender would err on the side of caution and choose another outfit. I do not think calling one out for their attire is being judgemental if the purpose of doing so is to steer that person away from sin or causing another to sin. Assuming all parties involved in this situation are Saved, then we are even more compelled to lead one another on in love and consideration for our fellow believers.
ReplyDeleteAmanda S. in Oho
My belief is that Christian leadership should not be born out of a title or position, and not a hired position either. It happens naturally and healthily when people look to older or more experienced believers BECAUSE they have proven themselves by their character and faith.
ReplyDeleteWhen we set up church by our human instincts of hierarchy, we often hurt each other. Well, come to think of it, we hurt each other almost no matter what, since we're all sinners. But if we truly follow the ways of God's kingdom (very different...actually opposite from our kingdoms), we tend to encourage and build each other up more often than use each other as another rung on the ladder to the pedestal.
To the first commenter, like Ray, I am so sorry. Jesus knows your pain. I pray you will feel His comfort and healing caused by those tragic wounds. And that there will be other members in His family here in the physical to express more of His love to you.
Ray, your post is all about moving people toward intimacy with Jesus and then the right actions will follow, and I think you're right on.
ReplyDeleteOne pastor I know took this approach, and I'll share this true story as fast as I can. A couple who were living together started attending. They became believers, and he met with them regularly. They discussed marriage and what holiness looks like. They chose to stop sleeping in the same room until they got married, and now they are very involved in serving others with that church.
If the pastor had hit them with moral standards first, they may never have discovered Jesus. Instead they met Jesus and then learned about his picture for holy living. They obeyed out of love for God, not because someone threatened them with hell or being ostracized. I don't think that pastor had a blueprint. He just loved people and listened to the Spirit. It worked.
The case of the too-short skirt is one in which the older females in the congregation need to take action. The older women are supposed to be teaching the younger women. But they so rarely do! What is a video confrontation by male elders going to do but embarrass her? Ugh!
ReplyDeleteI was part of a church discipline once that felt like an ambush. I was pulled along by others to confront a married woman who had left her husband and was living w/ another man. I went because she was my friend. But it was awful the way we confronted her--at home, with no warning, like we were getting ready to stone her. And it did no good, go figure. She divorced her husband and eventually remarried. I wish I'd never taken part. It makes me feel yucky just thinking about it. She's still a friend, albeit a distant one.
These are amazing stories and diverse perspectives, everyone:
ReplyDeleteAmanda: It's true that one person's actions can impact another. The challenge of leadership is to find the heart of the matter because true change needs to come from inside out--for everyone involved.
Esther: thanks for your observations. God's Kingdom definitely runs on a different value-system than the world's, and it *should* start with the leadership. Jesus said worldly-minded rulers "lord it over" their charges. Consider Jesus' tender leadership toward the twelve (John 13, for example) BUT he was pretty hard on the Pharisees! In both cases he acted out of love. That's something I'll be mulling over for years.
Ed: any pastor who can gently guide a couple to a safe landing like that has my admiration. Although you didn't say it, he was probably getting considerable heat from others in the church about "holding up God's standard." Did the pastor go soft on God's standard? ;-)
Hi Jill: Thanks for stopping by! I think you raise some excellent points. Wouldn't it be nice if most churches had a culture where older women could lead the younger--but the question still remains how. Your experience with a "Christian intervention team" seems really instructive. It sounds like an ambush to me, too. As you learned, going through the motions just isn't enough, is it?
Hey Ray, lots of great points raised here. I'm encouraged that the answer given is not the typical, "just ignore it and it'll go away."
ReplyDeleteA couple of quick thoughts. Church discipline is important. However, actions taken against a behavior or attitude which does not have the interest of the offender at the root of it, becomes judgement, not discipline. A father can discipline a child, a stranger can not. A stranger can chide, a stranger can embarrass, a stranger can effect changes in outer behaviors, but real discipline, that which changes the heart of the offender, occurs only by God and that, through those who genuinely love and care for those in the wrong.
Remember always, even those in leadership positions, offend others at different times, and in different ways. We are all sinners saved and kept by grace, and we are to be stewards of that grace that we have been given, dispensing it to those around us. It is not quick, it is not easy, and it is very rarely handled with an intervention except in the most temporary way.
I accept the rebuke of those who love and care for me so much more readily from friends than I do from peers or "superiors" whom I don't really know from Adam.
So, in the case of, "the short skirt," what would I advocate? Interest. A genuine interest in the girl's life by other women in the church. Remember, it is not about a skirt, it is about a heart, a real person. One who sounds like she has been marginalized for a good portion of her life, especially in light of the fact that she is always looking for attention.
It may take an entire lifetime to change the, "short skirt," issue, especially since that isn't really what it is all about. It is about a heart that is tender to Jesus, and what He demands of us. And sometimes, that takes a long time for someone to grasp. However, that isn't up to us.
Evangelism and discipleship doesn't stop at the door to the church (either going in, or going out) it is who we are and the life we live once we become Christians. A lifetime spent on one person, who truly, "gets it," and, I would hazard to say, teaches us quite a few things along the way, is a life well spent. We just don't feel like investing the time. God forgive us.
And, "turning over to Satan?" there may come a time for that, but remember Paul's conclusion and reason for that,..."for the saving of their souls." It will only be for a season, and we are to be there when they come back.
But, as Dennis Miller would say, "that's just my opinion, and I could be wrong."
Hi Jonathan: Thanks for your post--I mean really--thanks. The comments over on facebook have centered almost exclusively on the short skirt, which really isn't the issue. I loved that you said, "It may take an entire lifetime to change the, 'short skirt' issue, especially since that isn't really what it is all about."
ReplyDeleteI especially liked your opening comment about the difference between church discipline and judgment--sweet!
Ray, what a great post. We actually confronted this issue in our church when we finally got fed up with the attire allowed on the platform. No exaggeration, it was like watching Britney Spears. The joy of it all? The two worst offenders were the senior pastors' daughters. (OUCH.) We met with the pastor, were told he was not "the clothing police" and that was kinda the end (there was a policy later put into place issuing some more conservative guidelines.) Yes, I am concerned about the motives behind the one dressing like that, and yes I hope that these young women would eventually find more value in themselves than how great they look in a skirt. I am equally concerned with my teen sons that are sitting in the pews looking at these girls, and what kind of message that sends to them, and what message it sends to my daughters who are also sitting there wondering if that is the way THEY should be dressing. It is a matter of the heart, but it is also a matter of thinking of others more than yourself. If ones personal attire is grounds to cause another to stumble, than I would hope that the offender would err on the side of caution and choose another outfit. I do not think calling one out for their attire is being judgemental if the purpose of doing so is to steer that person away from sin or causing another to sin. Assuming all parties involved in this situation are Saved, then we are even more compelled to lead one another on in love and consideration for our fellow believers.
ReplyDeleteAmanda S. in Oho
Shepherd: You keep speaking as if church leaders are tapped into some source of Wisdom, or something. Some of them are; some of them aren't. Just like "regular" believers. When I was losing my faith over mandatory tithing, my ex was having an affair during our time of separation (really, tithing did me in; it was a "last straw" among other straws) She has been welcomed back as a visitor with her new husband; the result of an adulterous affair. For me, It was suggested to me that I go elsewhere, and though I did not get answers to my questions, I got the message. My point is here is not just another rocky-church-horror story; not at all. We all have those. My point is that authority for undershepherds comes from some other thing than a manly voice; it comes from a wholly developed matrix of authority, love, correct doctrine, and community. And this does not happen by making speeches; and the very institutionalization of authority that you favor in your writings seems to, IMHO, work against the true formation of such a fellowship-context. Because the community of believers are part of it -- an essential and unreplaceable part of it. It cannot come soley from the pulpit. If you have that, I think the witness of people's lives and the conviction of the Holy Spirit will take care of the short skirts. In answer to your question: At this time, it is "crazy talk." Unless you know a place where the leaders actually intercede over their charges and try to help them grow and flourish. Even the difficult ones with difficult questions.
ReplyDeleteThe case of the too-short skirt is one in which the older females in the congregation need to take action. The older women are supposed to be teaching the younger women. But they so rarely do! What is a video confrontation by male elders going to do but embarrass her? Ugh!
ReplyDeleteI was part of a church discipline once that felt like an ambush. I was pulled along by others to confront a married woman who had left her husband and was living w/ another man. I went because she was my friend. But it was awful the way we confronted her--at home, with no warning, like we were getting ready to stone her. And it did no good, go figure. She divorced her husband and eventually remarried. I wish I'd never taken part. It makes me feel yucky just thinking about it. She's still a friend, albeit a distant one.
Ray, your post is all about moving people toward intimacy with Jesus and then the right actions will follow, and I think you're right on.
ReplyDeleteOne pastor I know took this approach, and I'll share this true story as fast as I can. A couple who were living together started attending. They became believers, and he met with them regularly. They discussed marriage and what holiness looks like. They chose to stop sleeping in the same room until they got married, and now they are very involved in serving others with that church.
If the pastor had hit them with moral standards first, they may never have discovered Jesus. Instead they met Jesus and then learned about his picture for holy living. They obeyed out of love for God, not because someone threatened them with hell or being ostracized. I don't think that pastor had a blueprint. He just loved people and listened to the Spirit. It worked.